Saturday, January 27, 2007
Debate: Infidel vs Human & Learner - Part 4
Dear Human, Learner and Muneer,
Since my last post became too lengthy, so I am posting a new blog. It has some astonishing information. I have tried to provide the references as well.
I would start with Embryology in Quran. Please go through the table below and you would see a great similarity in ancient doctors’ work and Quran & Hadith.
Comparative study of stages of embryology
Stage
Hippocrates
Aristotle
Galen
Quran
Hadith
1
semen/sperm
semen/sperm
semen/sperm
semen/sperm (nutfah)
Sperm/semen for first 40 days
(1-40 days)
2
mother's blood descends around the membrane
menstrual blood (catamenia)
menstrual blood
clot
(alaqa)
clot (alaqa)
for next 40 days
(40-80 days)
3
flesh, fed through umbilicus
flesh
unshaped flesh
piece or lump of meat (mudghah)
lump of meat (mudghah) for next 40 days (80-120 days)
4
bones
bones
bones
bones (adaam)
no bones till 120 days or 4 months
5
---
around the bones grow the fleshy parts
flesh grows on and around the bones
dressing the bones with muscles
dressing the bones with muscles
Time before quran
1000 years before the Quran
900 years before the Quran
400 years before the Quran
HIPPOCRATES
His stages are as follows with the references in the text.
Semen
Sperm is a product which comes from the whole body of each parent, weak sperm coming from the weak parts, and strong sperm from the strong parts. Section 8, p 321
Coagulation of Mother's blood
The seed (embryo), then, is contained in a membrane ... Moreover, it grows because of its mother's blood, which descends to the womb. For once a woman conceives, she ceases to menstruate... Section 14, p. 326
Flesh
At this stage, with the descent and coagulation of the mother's blood, flesh begins to be formed, with the umbilicus. Section 14, p. 326
Bones
As the flesh grows it is formed into distinct members by breath ... The bones grow hard ... moreover they send out branches like a tree ... Section 17, p. 328
This information is clearly summarized in the following chart.
STAGES OF PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT ACCORDING TO HIPPOCRATES
STAGE 1. sperm
STAGE 2. mother's blood descends around the membrane
STAGE 3. flesh, fed through umbilicus
STAGE 4. bones
Clearly this shows that 1000 years before the Quran the development of the embryo was divided into stages.
ARISTOTLE
Next we will look at Aristotle. In his book On the Generation of Animals, around 350 BC, Aristotle gives his stages of embryology. (The section numbers are in the text.)
Semen and menstrual blood
In this section, 728a, Aristotle speaks of the male semen as being in a pure state ... "It follows that what the female would contribute to the semen of the male would be material for the semen to work upon." In other words the semen clots the menstrual blood.
Then he continues, "Nature forms from the purest material the flesh ... and from the residues thereof bones, sinews, hair, and also nails ... and lastly, round about the bones, and attached to them by thin fibrous bands, grow the fleshy parts. ..." 654b
Clearly the Quran follows this exactly, sperm clotting the menstrual blood which forms meat. Then the bones are formed and lastly "round about the bones ... grow the fleshy parts" as we see in the following chart.
STAGES OF PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT ACCORDING TO ARISTOTLE
STAGE 1. sperm
STAGE 2. catamenia -- menstrual blood
STAGE 3. flesh
STAGE 4. bones
STAGE 5. around the bones grow the fleshy parts
GALEN
Galen was born in 131 AD in Pergamum (modern Bergama in Turkey).
Galen - On Semen
Galen says, "The substance from which the fetus is formed is not merely menstrual blood, as Aristotle maintained, but menstrual blood plus the semen." p 50.
The Quran agrees with Galen here when it says in Sura 76:2, "We created man from a drop of mingled sperm."
Embryological Development
Concerning Embryological development, Galen also taught that the embryo developed in stages.
He wrote, "the first is that in which ... the form of the semen prevails. At this time Hippocrates too, the all marvelous, ... still calls it semen (geniture)."
The next stage is "when it has been filled with blood, and heart, brain and liver are (still) unarticulated and unshaped ... this is the period ... that Hippocrates (called) foetus."
(The Quranic Sura 22:5 reflects this when it says, "... Then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed ...")
"And now the third period of gestation has come ... Thus it (nature) caused flesh to grow on and around all the bones."
We saw above that the Quran agrees with this in Sura 23:14 where it says, "And we clothed the bones (with) meat."
"The fourth and final period (puer or child - verse 9) is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated."
GALEN'S STAGES OF PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT
STAGE 1. The semen
STAGE 2. plus menstrual blood
STAGE 3. unshaped flesh
STAGE 4. bones
STAGE 5. flesh grows on and around the bones
Thus we see that Galen also has stages. He divides them differently, but the sequence is the same.
HOW MUHAMMAD KNEW THIS MEDICAL SCIENCE
As asked by Learner many times, and an prevailing argument by muslims is that Muhammad was illiterate, then how could he know all these medical science points from earlier doctors’ books. As I stated earlier that there is no doubt in the fact that Muhammad was illiterate but he could hear and understand the things from his companions and surrounding society. I would describe one of such companion of Muhammad who was a doctor himself.
Harith ben Kalada was the best-educated physician trained in the healing art. He was born about the middle of the sixth century, at Ta'if, in the tribe of Banu Thaqif. He traveled through Yemen and then Persia where he received his education in the medical sciences at the great medical school of Jundi-Shapur and thus was intimately acquainted with the medical teachings of Aristotle, Hippocrates and Galen.
Having completed his studies he practiced as a physician in Persia and during this time he was called to the court of King Khosru, with whom he had a long conversation. He came back to Arabia about the beginning of Islam and settled down at Ta'if. While there Abu'l-Khayr, a King of Yemen, came to see him, in connection with a certain disease from which he was suffering and, on being cured, rewarded him with much money and a slave girl. This shows that he was a well-known doctor of his era.
About the eye he says that it is constituted of fat which is the white part, of water which is the black part, and of wind which constituted the eyesight." All this ... goes to show the acquaintance of Harith with the Greek doctors. He died in the reign of 'Umar the 2nd Caliph.
Summarizing the situation in a few words in his book Histoire de la Médecine Arabe, Dr. Lucien LeClerc writes,
"Harith ben Kalada studied medicine at Jandi-Shapur and Muhammad owed to Harith a part of his medical knowledge. Thus, with the one as well as the other, we easily recognize the traces of Greek (medicine)."
"Sometimes Muhammad treated the sick but in the difficult cases he would send the patients to Harith."
In summary, we see that
(1) Arabs living in Mecca and Medina in 600 AD had political and economic relations with people from Ethiopia, Yemen, Persia, and Byzantium, i.e. present day Turkey.
(2) The Ghassan tribe, which ruled the Syrian desert over to the gates of Medina, used Syriac--one of the main languages used to teach medicine at Jundi-Shapur--as their official language.
(3) An ill king of Yemen came to Ta'if to consult the physician Harith ben Kalada who had been trained at Jundi-Shapur--the best medical school in that world--and to whom Muhammad sometimes sent patients.
(4) During Muhammad's life time a new medical school was established in Alexandria using the XVI books of Galen as their texts.
This all shows that there was ample opportunity for Muhammad and the people around him to have heard of the embryological theories of Aristotle, Hippocrates and Galen when they went to seek treatment from Harith ben Kalada and other local doctors.
Thus when the Quran says in Sura 40:67 (and others like 23:13-14)
"He it is Who created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop, then from a clot (‘alaqa) ... THAT PERHAPS NOW YOU MAY UNDERSTAND,"
And Sura 22:5 states:
"O mankind! if you have doubt about the resurrection (consider) that We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot (‘alaqa), etc..."
it is correct for us to ask again what were they to understand?
What were they to consider?
When we look at the Quranic stages again the answer is very clear.
QURANIC STAGES OF PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT
STAGE 1. nutfa -- sperm
STAGE 2. ‘alaqa -- clot
STAGE 3. mudagha -- piece or lump of flesh
STAGE 4. ‘adaam -- bones
STAGE 5. dressing the bones with muscles
They were understanding and considering that which was common knowledge--the embryological stages as taught by the Greek physicians.
I do not mean that Muhammad's listeners all knew the names of the Greek physicians, but they knew the embryological stages of the Greek physicians.
(1) They believed that the male sperm
(2) mixed with the female semen and menstrual blood to cause it to clot and this became the baby.
(3) They believed there was a time when the fetal lump was "formed and unformed".
(4) They believed the lump became bones
(5) which were then covered with muscles
Allah in the Quran was using that common knowledge as a sign encouraging the listeners and readers to turn to Him. The problem is that this common knowledge was and is not true.
Let us see Sahih hadith from Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 549
Narrated Abdullah (b. Mas'ud):
Allah's Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, "(as regards your creation), every one of you is collected in the womb of his mother for the first forty days, and then he becomes a clot for an other forty days, and then a piece of flesh for an other forty days. Then Allah sends an angel ……
Similar hadiths are : Sahih Bukhari
004.054.430 008.077.593 009.093.546 and
Sahih Muslim
033.6390The drop of sperm remains a drop of sperm 40 days, then a Clot (alaqa) 40 days for a total of 80 days, then "chewed meat" (mudghah) for 40 days for a total of 120 days as shown in the following summary.
Modern gynecological studies have shown that sperm remain alive less than a week inside the female genital tract, and that at 70 days organ differentiation and maturation are well advanced. This Hadith says that it doesn't even become "an unformed lump" until 80 days, a gross error.
It clearly shows something of what men believed only 400 years ago from Muhammad, and it raises severe theological problems.
Dr. Maurice Bucaille , who is often referred by muslims, also mentions this Hadith and concludes,
"This description of embryonic evolution does not agree with modern data."
HADITH'S STAGES OF PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT
STAGE 1. sperm--for first 40 days
STAGE 2. ‘alaqa -- clot for next 40 days
STAGE 3. mudagha -- meat for next 40 days
This makes a total of 120 days or 4 months and there are still no bones.
In truth all organs are formed and bones are beginning to calcify at 2 months.
CONCLUSIVE PROOF -- MUSCLES BEFORE BONES
Besides sura 23:13-14, the idea of “bones before muscles” is also repeated in Sura 2:259
which says,
"..Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh.."
It implies that first the skeleton is formed, and then it is clothed with flesh.
Dr. Maurice Bucaille knows perfectly well that this is not true.
At the end of the 8th week there are only a few centers of ossification started but the fetus is already capable of some muscular movement.
Dr. Sadler stated
"At the 8th week post fertilization, muscles would be present. Also at this time ossification (formation of bones) would begin near the angle of the rib and would spread along the shaft until it reached the costal cartilage by the 4th month.”
Lastly, a great surprise!!! Guess, whom I am going to refer? It is, none other than, the same Dr. Keith Moore. Let us check what he has to say about the development of bones and muscles in his book The Developing Human. Extracted from Chapters 15-17 we find the following information: This is from 4th edition of the western version of his textbook and what you referred is the 3rd edition of Islamic version of the same textbook.
The skeletal and muscle system develops from the mesoderm, some of which becomes mesenchymal cells. These mesenchymal cells make muscles, and also have the ability to differentiate...into osteoblasts which make bone. At first the bones form as cartilage models so that by the end of the sixth week the whole limb skeleton is formed out of cartilage but without any bony calcium as shown in Figure 15-13.
While the bone models are forming, myoblasts develop a large muscle mass in each limb bud, separating into extensor and flexor components. In other words, the limb musculature develops simultaneously in situ from the mesenchyme surrounding the developing bones. So Dr. Moore agrees completely with Dr. Sadler.
Conclusion: on bone development Dr. Sadler and Dr. Moore agree. There is no time when calcified bones have been formed and then the muscles are placed around them. The muscles are there several weeks before there are calcified bones, rather than being added around previously formed bones as the Quran states. The Quran is in complete error here.
11:32:59 AM
Posted By
Infidel M Comments (41) MusingsComments
rumplestiltskin Saturday, January 27, 2007 7:46:04 PM
This is a direct cut&paste job from bible.ca written by Dr.William Campbell - yes the same Campbell who had a 4 hour debate with our own Dr.Zakir Naik held in USA/Canada. What is quoted here is not new, each and every word here was spoken by Campbell at the debate viewed by 100s of people of every religion. The debate is there on the net, in cds and dvds. One has to see the expression on Campbell's face at the end, that says the whole story and nothing more need to be said. He lost miserably to every accusion and when questioned couldn't refute anything..It was a pathetic show by Campbell. Leave alone God Campbell could not refute a human being. Real pathetic.Infidel you are a dumb person to quote Campbell's version. Just read the transcript of the debate or better view it.The truth will enlighten on you. Every bit of quote and info is misinterpretated. See the video how he could not even confirm to what he blabbers.Take a break man and please grow up. Hate will not give you anything.
rumplestiltskin Saturday, January 27, 2007 9:10:24 PM
Infidel, in your previous blogs which I went thru you said Dr.Moore had written on behalf of muslims and was paid in $$. Kindly tell me if Osama sponsored him and paid in $$ to write wrong facts THEN WHY IS HIS BOOK REFERRED BY every University in the USA and Canada. He was awarded by the US govt and awarded many fellowships. How can a wrong person be given awards and the 10th edition of his book along with Dr.Prasad be the source of studies in numerous universities...Keith L. Moore, TVN Persaud, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 10th edition, (WB Saunders, 2002)
Infidel Saturday, January 27, 2007 11:39:30 PM
Dear rumplestiltskin, I can understand your anger and frustration. Please calm down. We are discussing here with decency, so please maintain that. Don't attack me personally. Its just a request.As I said earlier neither me nor Human & Learner are expert in all the things. We need help of internet and trying to sort out the confusion and doubts. We all puting our points and trying to find the truth out of it. We may or may not find it but surely one day we will succeed, we are sure about it.So refrain yourself from using faul language.
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:03:03 AM
Regarding Dr Campbell, I don't find anything wrong with his research. He may not be an excellent debater as Dr Naik is. And really I don't want to go in there right now, may be later.If you had gone through our debate in detail, you will find that both of us are taking information from internet and with some editing, we are pouring our points. We have to do that because neither me nor human are expert in medical science or any other field we discussed so far. We have to depend upon experts work done already. So we are actually not going to re-invent the wheel and discussing the things with our understanding. Hope you understand what I mean.It is not important where are we getting the infornmation from, but the information itself.Can you explain me what is wrong with the table given above at the top of this post. Can't you see the similarities in quran and ancient doctors understanding of embryology of human being?
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:04:18 AM
As I said in my last blog, the islamic version of Dr Moore's textbook "The Developing Human" 3rd edition is not at all available in western world, even in most reputed and rich libraries of the west. Dr Moore is concerned about his repo as a genious gynecologist, so he had two versions of his same textbook, one for west and one for islamic world. You can't deny that.
jadavKumar Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:15:13 AM
Dear Infidel,Do you understand what you have written or u have just cut and pasted from somewhere?Being an MBBS i can tell you that these findings has been proven wrong now!I cant write like you in a blog if you are really interested then i can call you in my dispensary which happens to be located in Ghatkopar, Mumbai.But i do appreciate this blog!!Keep it up.
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:18:03 AM
I am sorry, Mr jadavkumar, I put your name wrongly in my comment, please don't mind.
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:18:42 AM
Dear rumplestiltskin,Leave alone the source of information, Please tell me where are sperms formed, in testes or somehwere else? Where are testes are in our body, between our legs and just below our p*nis, or in between backbone and ribs? So how can " a man is created from a drop emitted from between backbone and ribs" as per quran is true?Muscles formation starts in the 4th week and 40 pairs already present by day 36, while ossification (Bone formation) starts only in 7th eweek, how first bone is formed (and in other verse they were even brought together)then "clothed" with muscles as in quran is true? I quoted from Dr Moore's next edition above and that completely agrees with Dr Sadler's work, is that not right?Can you give me the meaning of arabic words "izhaam" and "ghudhroof"?
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:22:59 AM
Thanks Javed for your concern, but I am sorry I can not come to meet you personally. So I would request you to write in a blog here what you found wrong in my blogs, with the correct information as per you.You are an MBBS, you must be knowing whether sperms are formed in testes or not, please let us know? Also, where testes are located in our body, are they in between ribs and backbone, please explain.
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:35:07 AM
Dear rumplestiltskin, I am repeating my question here again which I asked Human and Muneer earlier, as below:"Muhammad said in hadith that alaqa stage is 40-80 days and mudghah stage is 80-120 days, but Dr Moore says alaqa is 23-24 days and mudghah is 27-28 days." In your opinion who is right, muhammad or Dr Moore? Surely, in my understandig, for a believer like you, it should be muhammad (being a prophet of allah) because Dr Moore is not even a believer. Most definitively Dr Moore's interpretation and translation must be wrong as muhammad and allah can not be wrong. Please respond. PS: This question is my own, not a copy-paste stuff.
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:49:17 AM
Mr Jadavkumar, please also explain that bond formation strats in 7-8 weeks i.e. around 2 months (Dr Moore and others) or after 120 days i.e. 4 months (as per muhammad in hadith, after mudghah stage)in an human embryo.
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:16:18 AM
Dear rumplestiltskin,I think you didn't understand the purpose of this debate properly. We are not here to hate each other (as you said in your comment) but to respect each others view and find the truth. I would request you to go through our debate, one more time and you will find how we have put forward our points in most respectful and graceful manner. We never accused or abused each other, never involved in personal attackes and always praised each other for the sincere effort we are putting in this debate. You are most welcome to put your point of view by maintaining the decency of the debate. This debate is a very good example of muslim and non muslim dialogue, so please don't make this debate a mess. I personally respect Human, Learner and Muneer for their knowledge and firm belief in their religion. They are experts in islam, for me atleast and for sure they are gem of a human being. Let me put yourself also in this category, by getting glimpses of your knowledge. Regards
muneerudeen Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:16:59 AM
Infi !I do not have the time to cut and paste & research other peoples works. I think rumplstenskin's answer is enough evidence on the finality of that !As for Quran and Hadeeths -DID you know that Muslims are not Muslims if they do not beleive in ALLAH , the Angels, the Prophets ,the BOOKS !
muneerudeen Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:21:59 AM
Infi !I will tell you onething ! iN OUR life time -we will hear scientists, astronomers and medical science revising so many of their theories -time and time again and finally end up where the Quran has explained these. Its only that we do not have the knowledge yet-BUT soon will !See how much you have learned in the last 3 weeks after Amit Kaushal's Australiam episode with a muslim !Thats debate and life !-Learn at every stage !
muneerudeen Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:23:13 AM
So if there was any knowledge of the people before Islam-It does not mean that Allah cannot incorporate it in the Quran. Every religious book Thorah , Zaboor,Injeel and Quran have instructions to man- and Qur'an is the latest (windows Vista-if you like ) So follow that BUT dont ignore te good from the other texts ! Thats ISLAM- refined and Purified for YOU !
muneerudeen Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:34:19 AM
Human race started with Prophet Adam maybe 6000 years before Islam .All prophets were either given commandments OR books to educate their people of their time in the way of GOD !The Thorah , Zaboor, Injeel and the Quran are the FOUR Books and 100 commandments -50 to one prophet, 10 to Moses, 10 to Noah and the rest 30 to other prophets-I dont remember now !But willexplain later.
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:35:21 AM
Muneer, thanks for the reply.So you agree that knowledge of people before islam is in quran. What I have wrote above is not from any religious book, but from medical books, written centuries before muhammad. Quranic concept of human embryology is in perfect agreement of these ancient doctors. Now, the problem is that neither these doctors nor quran is correct about it. All of them are in gross error. Since it is proved that quran is in error, how can that be god's word? Muneer, Please answer my question about muhammad and Dr Moore.
IC_2007 Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:42:08 AM
MUNEER BHAI AS OUR ISRO SCIENTISTS ARE STRIVING HARD TO DEVELOP BETTER GSLV LAUNCH VEHICLES FOR MANNED SPACE MISSION,WHY DON'T YOU HELP THESE POOR SOULS BY FINDING FROM QURAN THE TECHNICAL KNOW-HOW ABOUT GSLV !BECOZ TO QOUTE FROM YOUR POST"Infi !I will tell you onething ! iN OUR life time -we will hear scientists, astronomers and medical science revising so many of their theories -time and time again and finally end up where the Quran has explained these" .SO PLZ DO US ALL A FAVOUR N HELP OUR ISRO.THANXJAI HIND!IC
rumplestiltskin Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:11:52 AM
Infidel,Read my statement clearly..what you have written is from Dr. Campbell and Dr. Campbell raised these SAME points in his debate with Dr. Zakir Naik in USA/Canada publicly recorded debate and all his allegations (what you have written above) have been proved wrong and Campbell could only allege but when questioned could not prove anything. The debate can be viewed on dvds. Ask any muslim friend of yours about the debate between campbell and naik, he will provide you with the disk. Watch it and get enlightened with all your doubts raised above about sperm, alaq, mudga, sun, moon etc and also about errors in the bible. Dont try to extract your pound of flesh from lay muslims. See the experts battle it out Dr.Campbell vs Dr.Zakir Naik and the expression on Campbell's face will convince you of the truth of the Quran.It is not about who talks or writes better but ABOUT FACTS.
rumplestiltskin Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:19:51 AM
Man created from a drop emitted from between the Back Bone and the Ribs: The Qur'an mentions in Surah Al-Tariq (chapter no. 86), verses 5-7; (86: 5-7)"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted proceeding from between the back bone and the ribs".In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, ie. the testicles and the ovaries, begin their development near the kidney exactly between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs. Later they descend; the female gonads (ovaries) stop in the pelvis while the male gonads continue their decent before birth to reach the scrotum outside the body through the inguinal canal. Even after the embryonic stage after the decent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply (from the Aorta) and lymphatic drainage which is in the area between the backbone (spinal column) and the ribs
rumplestiltskin Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:24:58 AM
The human being is created from "Nutfa" which means a minute quantity of liquid or a trickle of liquid which remains after emptying a cup or a bucket. This is mentioned in several verses of the Qur'an like surah Al-Hajj (chapter 22) verse 5, and surah Al-Mominun (chapter 23, verse 14).Science has confirmed in recent times that only one of the 300 million sperms is required for fertilisation of the ovum; this means that only a 1/300 millionth part or 0.000000003 quantity of sperms that are emitted is required for fertilisation.In surah Al-Insan (chapter no. 76), verse 2; (76:2) "Verily We created man from a drop of mingled liquid"The Arabic word "Nutfatin Amshajin" means mingled liquids which besides spermatic fluid contain other fluids like prostatic secretions, etc. which facilitate the movement of the sperm to help in fertilization.
rumplestiltskin Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:29:57 AM
Source: Dr. Zakir Naik. Same was in the debate with Campbell with demo in slides on OHP viewed by 100s of audiences and recorded live. Campbell failed in his allegations to prove anything!
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:43:23 AM
Instead of repeating the same thing again and again, please go through our debate first and try to answer the questions raised. I don't want to repeat all what I said earlier again and again.
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:44:01 AM
Instead of repeating the same thing again and again, please go through our debate first and try to answer the queries raised. I don't want to repeat all what I said earlier again and again.
rumplestiltskin Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:48:19 AM
The sex of a foetus is determined by the nature of the sperm and not the ovum. The sex of the child, whether female or male, depends on whether the 23rd pair of chromosomes is XX or XY respectively(a) In surah Al-Najm (chapter no. 53), verse no. 45 and 56 (53: 45 and 46)He did create in pairs male and female from a small quantity of liquid when lodged in its place."The Arabic word "Nutfatin" means a minute quantity of liquid and "Turah" means gushing from the husband (male) and cannot refer to the wife (female).(b) In Surah Al-Qiyamah (chapter no. 75), verse 37-39 (75:37-39)"Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)? Then did he become a clinging clot; then did (Allah) make and fashions (him) in due proportion and of him He made two sexes, male and female."Here again it is mentioned that a small quantity (drop) of sperm (indicated by the word "Nutfatin maniyyan") which comes from the husband is responsible for the sex of the foetus.
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:54:11 AM
I completely agree with you that "It is not about who talks or writes better but ABOUT FACTS." You are provoking me to go in details of Dr Campbell and Dr Naik debate, but since it will be very lengthy one and will distract us from our own debate. Hence I don't want to their.You called Human and other mulsim here as "lay muslim" but for me they are experts in islam.Moreover, I have my copy of the said debate and I write something only when I am convienced, not blind copy and paste, I analyse by myself, understand it and compile. I may not be right but with my ability and understanding, I can say that facts provided by Dr Campbell are not bogus. Dr Naik is only refering Dr Moore's islamic version of his textbook, whichwe have discussed in detail.
rumplestiltskin Sunday, January 28, 2007 2:55:58 AM
why are you harping on an article written by the person who lost a live public debate on this same topic which you are talking about? I cant post that video here.Watch it and get relieved.Regarding cut and paste I have acknowledged the source where as you have blindly copied the lies and accusations.I got a better idea for you. If you are married then kindly meet any gynacologist you know or are referring and clarify..if not then ask someone near you who is married to do that. You will get the answer regarding the backbone and ribs.
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 3:01:37 AM
rumplestiltskin,I thought you would come up with something new. But you did the same thing - Copy and Paste from Dr Naik's site (other islamic sites also have the samething). You accused me of "copy & paste" but you did the same.Anyway, you can find this argument at www.ndtvblogs.com/views/viewcomments.asp?gl_guid=0AED84E9-15A0-449C-BD44-56989C3183B1&q_blogid=9071&blogname=Hereafterand my reply was like this "Infidel Friday, January 19, 2007 11:34:56 PM Learner and Ajmal,Let us read the verse 86:6-7 one more time. It says: “He is created from a drop emitted, proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs”.I don’t think these verses talking about a stage of embryology. They are talking about creation of a man from a drop which is emitted from between backbone and ribs. The ‘drop emitted’ suggests a fully developed and functional testes, rather than an embryonic structure. Embryonic testes do not emit, ejaculate, gush forth, pour forth, or spurt any substance; only the peri- and post-pubertal testes do. Even if we were to accept your implied claim that these verses refer to embryological stage, it is also wrong because the highest position of the undescended testes is BELOW the kidney, which is clearly not between backbone and ribs. It is rather below the backbone and way below to ribs. Ajmal, your explanation of the nerve, blood and lymphatic circular from the abdominal aorta is irrelevant and generates the logical fallacy of the red herring. This is because verses 85:6-7 speak about ‘a drop emitted’, commonly taken to mean semen and sperm only as this drop is directly responsible for human reproduction, something which cannot be claimed for nerve signals, blood or lymph."Human asked his non muslim gynecologist friend about this, he got the reply from him but he has to post that reply here yet. We will be waiting till he writes.You didn't answer my other questions, specially about muhammad and Dr Moore.
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 3:10:17 AM
rumplestiltskin,I have watched that debate atleast 3 times and still having doubts. That is why I am raising them here. Dr Naik is not having time for me so how can I ask him? The same Dr naik told (quoting Dr Moore)that alaqa is 23-24 days and mudghah is 27-28 days where as muhammad said alaqa is 40-80 days and mudghah is 80-120 days.Whom should I consider right, Muhammad, the prophet of allah or Dr naik and Dr Moore?Why are you avoiding this quesion?
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 3:15:30 AM
Are you still firm on your quote"It is not about who talks or writes better but ABOUT FACTS." I would request you to provide me something in favour of your claim (actually Dr Naik's) that quran is talking about testes in embryonical stage and not regarding a fully developed and functional testes. Also, how can testes in an embryo emit a drop from which man can be created?Please provide the evidences that testes in embryo are between ribs and backbone?Please explain, in any stage of an embryo, is it a clot? alaqa does not mean "leech like substance" rather it mean "leech", please clarify.Dr Naik didn't explain these things in that debate.
rumplestiltskin Sunday, January 28, 2007 3:17:19 AM
You have quoted from Campbell's article and that very person lost a live debate in front of international audiences with these same accusations and you are asking me to keep that issue aside and answer you..All your answers are there in that debate and more. Watch it.
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 3:24:36 AM
Have you really watched that debate? You are accussing me quoting Dr Campbell, but Dr Naik is all the time quoting Dr Moore's islamic version of his textbook which is totally different from his western version. How can I believe the arguments based on such book? Moreover, only muslims are claiming that Dr Campbell lost the debate. I agree that he is not a master of debating art as Dr Naik is, but if you go through the debate one more time, you will realise that his claims are not wage.Do you agree that the table on top of this post shows the similarity between quran and ancient scientists stages of an embryo.
Infidel Sunday, January 28, 2007 3:39:56 AM
Its Dr Naik's amazing debating skills which allows him to engage in "fallacy of supressing the evidences". If someone says that an embryo is a clot (in any stage, but as per muhammad it is precisely 40-80 days) and claims that bones are formed first and then "clothed" with muscles, then it is nothing but a blatant lie and can not be a truth even if repeated millions of times. Testes, who emit a drop to creat a man, are not in between ribs and backbone and who ever says that is either ignorant or a liar.
Ifyoudontmind Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:21:42 PM
This is my first time on the blog , but it seems surprising, i am really surprised that we ALL being in this century have to discuss and debate about ALLAH or RAM,, they both never paid there bills in time, PEOPLE please wake up,, and if possible let keep religion aside and work hard towards over family,,,. wish you all luck in pursuit of nothing,, wish you u'll only n only good faith and healing,,, .
muneerudeen Monday, January 29, 2007 12:19:41 AM
Infi !You are stuck with Dr Campbell and we cant change it. But realise one thing.GOD is Ilah and Al Ilah is the ONLY GOD and creator of all human race from Adam to YOU ! He has guided the people through Hundreds of prophets and 4 BOOKS and 100 commandments. The Thorah,Zaboor & Injeel have been changed from its original form and the Quran is the FINAL BOOK.If references are found in the Thorah by scientists- and modified - How does that make the Quran wrong !And even in the Quran taking few Ayat's out of context will not give you the entire knowledge.SO instead of researching Campbell and dDR Moore- try researching the Quran -in depth !
muneerudeen Monday, January 29, 2007 12:39:05 AM
Prophet Adam was given 10 Commandments- Prophet Sheews 50 ;Prophet Idris 30 and Prophet Abraham 10 apart from The Thorah with its commandments to Prophet Moses; The Zaboor to Prophet David;The Injeel to prophet Jesus and the Quran to Prophet Mohamed SAW.These are guidlines for those who beleive in them.We as muslims beleive in all these works of AL Ilah-The Omnipresnt ALLAH who sees us though we see HIM Not !
Infidel Monday, January 29, 2007 7:48:00 AM
Muneer,I have no interest in either Drs Campbell, Moore, Naik nor in torah, zaboor, injeel. I am only interested in quran and hadith.You wrote:"If references are found in the Thorah by scientists- and modified - How does that make the Quran wrong"The question is not where from scientist found, from old scriptures or from there own research. The question is where from quran got them. Since it has been proved above that quran got it from ancient scientists (which might or might not got it from old books), the authenticity of quran comes into picture.What you wrote gives an impression that what is in quran was also in old books, then all of them are wrong including quran. We are discussing that whether quran is god's word or not. Even one single error make it clear that it is not from god, because god is all knowing and he can not err. Be it quran or any other book. So far in our discussion it has been proved that quran is all wrong in embryology of human, it can be from god and from a man with 7th century knowledge.Isn't it clear from the table on the top of this post that muhammad put his knowledge (gathered from his companions and surroundings) about human embryology into quran. It is exactly the same thing which scientist before him told and he came to knew from his doctor companion and put it in quran as god's word. I see it clearly, don't you?I don't agree that we have taken any verse out of contest here. Verse 23:13-14 are regarding embrylogy of human and verse 86:6-7 are regarding creation of man from drop emitted. We have discussed them exactly for the same subject and did not deviated for even a single time. So no question of "out of context".
Infidel Monday, January 29, 2007 7:52:18 AM
You also wrote:"SO instead of researching Campbell and dDR Moore- try researching the Quran -in depth"Muneer, are we really discussing anything else than "quran"? Our discussion is so long just because we are discussion quran "in depth". I intensionally never gave the reference of my writing, because I didn't want to go in controversy of source. First Human and then rumplestiltskin raised this issue. We should not go by the source but the authenticity of the information.
Infidel Monday, January 29, 2007 8:00:37 AM
Correction:Please read in my earlier comment dated January 29, 2007 7:48:00 AM as "So far in our discussion it has been proved that quran is all wrong in embryology of human, it 'CANNOT' be from god and from a man with 7th century knowledge".Soory for the inconvenience.
Infidel Monday, January 29, 2007 8:48:11 AM
Hey venu and human,hope you guys are busy these days. No post for a long time now. take care. regards,
K.Venugopal Monday, January 29, 2007 10:40:20 PM
Hi Infidel, Great going. You have tremendous perseverance. I am writing a new blog introducing what a famous Swamiji had to say about the Quran. 
