Reply - Infiden from Human - in continuation - 2nd update

Friday, January 19, 2007
Reply => Infidel from Human...in continuation .. 2nd update
Dear Infi,
New update:
" Proceeding from the backbone and ribs".....
Actually it implies the harmones..for the male in his back and the female in her breasts...The harmone cells are connected to the sensory organs in the brain and these signals form an integral part in the formation of the sperm and the ovaries... (actually its my understanding not expert opinion)
And one more thing..in the goat or the chicken, while eating we remove the tissues (white fluid like) in the backbone which goes till its reproductive organs below..It is forbidden to eat that part... Similar must be the fluid passing through the spinal cord from the brain till the reproductive organ...Just like urine passes through the kidney and the bladder and flows out it doesn't mean that urine comes only from the penis...Is science yet to prove or are we missing something?
When the father's sperm cell fertilizes the mother's egg cell, the parents' genes come together to determine all the physical characteristics of the baby that will eventually be born. Each of the thousands of different genes has a particular function. It is the genes that determine hair and eye colour, facial shape, and countless details in the skeleton, internal organs, brain, nerves and muscles. When the sperm unites with the egg, a cell forms-the basis of a new human being-and along with that cell, the first copy of the DNA molecule also forms, which will carry that person's genetic code inside each cell all through his life.In order for that first cell, the fertilized egg, to turn into a human being, it needs to multiply, and in the knowledge of that, it begins to divide, with a remarkable consciousness. That consciousness reveals itself in the next phase. As the cells divide, they begin to grow different and go to those parts of the body where they are needed. Instead of a mass of flesh composed of exactly the same cells, some of them turn into eye cells and go where they are needed, others form heart cells and go to the chest, and still others become skin cells and cover the whole body. All the cells multiply as much as is needed for the particular tissue they will construct, and start joining together to give the tissues the structure they need, thus beginning to create different organs.
The Birth of a Human Being
Many diverse subjects are mentioned in the Qur'an in the course of inviting people to believe. Allah shows sometimes the heavens, sometimes animals, and sometimes plants as evidence to man. In many of the verses, people are called upon to turn their attention to their own creation. They are often reminded how man came into the world, which stages he has passed through, and what his essence is:
It is We Who have created you. Why, then, do you not accept the truth? Have you ever considered that (seed) which you emit? Is it you who create it? Or are We the Creator? (Surat al-Waqi'a, 57-59)
The creation of man, and the miraculous aspect of this, is stressed in many other verses. Some items of information within these verses are so detailed that it is impossible for anyone living in the seventh century to have known them. Some of these are as follows:
1. Man is not created from the entire semen, but only a very small portion of it (sperm).
2. It is the male that determines the sex of the baby.
3. The human embryo adheres to the mother's uterus like a leech.
4. The embryo develops in three dark regions in the uterus.
People living when the Qur'an was revealed, to be sure, knew that the basic substance of birth was related to the semen of the male emitted during sexual intercourse. And the fact that the baby was born after a nine-month period was obviously an observable event not calling for any further investigation. However, the items of information just quoted were far above the level of learning of the people living at that time. These were verified by twentieth century science.
Now, let us go over them one by one.
A Drop of Semen
During sexual intercourse, 250 million sperms are emitted from the male at a time. The sperms undertake an arduous journey in the mother's body until they make it to the ovum. Only a thousand out of 250 million sperms succeed in reaching the ovum. At the end of this five-minute race, the ovum, half the size of a grain of salt, will let only one of the sperms in. That is, the essence of man is not the whole semen, but only a small part of it. This is explained in the Qur'an:
Does man reckon he will be left uncontrolled (without purpose)? Was he not once a drop of ejected semen? (Surat al-Qiyama, 36-37)
As we have seen, the Qur'an informs us that man is made not from the entire semen, but only a small part of it. That the particular emphasis in this statement announces a fact only discovered by modern science is evidence that the statement is divine in origin.
The Mixture in the Semen
The fluid called semen, which contains the sperms, does not consist of sperms alone. On the contrary, it is made up of a mixture of different fluids. These fluids have different functions, such as containing the sugar necessary for providing energy for the sperms, neutralising the acids at the entrance of the uterus, and creating a slippery environment for the easy movement of the sperms.
Interestingly enough, when semen is mentioned in the Qur'an, this fact, which was discovered by modern science, is also referred to, and semen is defined as a mixed fluid:
We created man from a mingled drop to test him, and We made him hearing and seeing." (Surat al-Insan, 2)
In another verse, semen is again referred to as a mixture, and it is stressed that man is created from the "extract" of this mixture:
He Who has created all things in the best possible way. He commenced the creation of man from clay; then He made his progeny from an extract of discarded fluid. (Surat as-Sajda, 7-8)
The Arabic word "sulala", translated as "extract", means the essential or best part of something. By either implication, it means "part of a whole". This shows that the Qur'an is the word of a Will that knows the creation of man down to its slightest detail. This Will is Allah, the Creator of man.
The Sex of the Baby
Until fairly recently, it was thought that a baby's sex was determined by the mother's cells. Or at least, it was believed that the sex was determined by the male and female cells together. But we are given different information in the Qur'an, where it is stated that masculinity or femininity is created out of "a drop of sperm which has been ejected".
He has created both sexes, male and female from a drop of semen which has been ejected. (Surat an-Najm, 45-46)
The developing disciplines of genetics and molecular biology have scientifically validated the accuracy of this information given by the Qur'an. It is now understood that sex is determined by the sperm cells from the male, and that the female has no role in this process.
Chromosomes are the main elements in determining sex. Two of the 46 chromosomes that determine the structure of a human being are identified as the sex chromosomes. These two chromosomes are called "XY" in males, and "XX" in females, because the shapes of the chromosomes resemble these letters. The Y chromosome carries the genes that code for masculinity, while the X chromosome carries the genes that code for femininity.
The formation of a new human being begins with the cross combination of one of these chromosomes, which exist in males and females in pairs. In females, both components of the sex cell, which divides into two during ovulation, carry X chromosomes. The sex cell of a male, on the other hand, produces two different kinds of sperm, one that contains X chromosomes and the other Y chromosomes. If an X chromosome from the female unites with a sperm that contains an X chromosome, then the baby is female. If it unites with the sperm that contains a Y chromosome, the baby is male.
In other words, a baby's sex is determined by which chromosome from the male unites with the female's ovum.
None of this was known until the discovery of genetics in the twentieth century. Indeed, in many cultures, it was believed that a baby's sex was determined by the female's body. That was why women were blamed when they gave birth to girls.
Thirteen centuries before human genes were discovered, however, the Qur'an revealed information that denies this superstition, and referred to the origin of sex lying not with women, but with the semen coming from men.
The Clot Clinging to the Uterus
If we keep on examining the facts announced to us in the Qur'an about the formation of human beings, we again encounter some very important scientific miracles.
When the sperm of the male unites with the ovum of the female, the essence of the baby to be born is formed. This single cell, known as a "zygote" in biology, will instantly start to reproduce by dividing, and eventually become a "piece of flesh" called an embryo. This of course can only be seen by human beings with the aid of a microscope.
The embryo, however, does not spend its developmental period in a void. It clings to the uterus just like roots that are firmly fixed to the earth by their tendrils. Through this bond, the embryo can obtain the substances essential to its development from the mother's body.
Here, at this point, a very significant miracle of the Qur'an is revealed. While referring to the embryo developing in the mother's womb, Allah uses the word "alaq" in the Qur'an:
Recite: In the name of your Lord Who created man from alaq. Recite: And your Lord is the Most Generous. (Surat al-'Alaq, 1-3)
The meaning of the word "alaq" in Arabic is "a thing that clings to some place". The word is literally used to describe leeches that cling to a body to suck blood.
Certainly, the use of such an appropriate word for the embryo developing in the mother's womb, proves once again that the Qur'an is a revelation from Allah, the Lord of all the Worlds.
The wrapping of muscles over the bones
Another important aspect of the information given in the verses of the Qur'an is the developmental stages of a human being in the mother's womb. It is stated in the verses that in the mother's womb, the bones develop first, and then the muscles form which wrap around them.
(We) then formed the drop into a clot and formed the clot into a lump and formed the lump into bones and clothed the bones in flesh; and then brought him into being as another creature. Blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators! (Surat al-Mu'minun, 14)
Embryology is the branch of science that studies the development of the embryo in the mother's womb. Until very recently, embryologists assumed that the bones and muscles in an embryo developed at the same time. For this reason, for a long time, some people claimed that these verses conflicted with science. Yet, advanced microscopic research conducted by virtue of new technological developments has revealed that the revelation of the Qur'an is word for word correct.
These observations at the microscopic level showed that the development inside the mother's womb takes place in just the way it is described in the verses. First, the cartilage tissue of the embryo ossifies. Then muscular cells that are selected from amongst the tissue around the bones come together and wrap around the bones.
This event is described in a scientific publication titled Developing Human in the following words:
During the seventh week, the skeleton begins to spread throughout the body and the bones take their familiar shapes. At the end of the seventh week and during the eighth week the muscles take their positions around the bone forms.9
In short, man's developmental stages as described in the Qur'an are in perfect harmony with the findings of modern embryology.
The bones of the baby completing its development in the mother's womb are clothed with flesh during one particular stage.
Three Stages of the Baby in the Womb
In the Qur'an, it is related that man is created in a three-stage process in the mother's womb.
... He creates you stage by stage in your mothers' wombs in a threefold darkness. That is Allah, your Lord. Sovereignty is His. There is no god but Him. So what has made you deviate? (Surat az-Zumar, 6)
As will be understood, it is pointed out in this verse that a human being is created in the mother's womb in three distinct stages. Indeed, modern biology has revealed that the baby's embryological development takes place in three distinct regions in the mother's womb. Today, in all the embryology textbooks studied in faculties of medicine, this subject is taken as an element of basic knowledge. For instance in Basic Human Embryology, a fundamental reference text in the field of embryology, this fact is stated as follows: "The life in the uterus has three stages: pre-embryonic; first two and a half weeks, embryonic; until the end of the eight week, and fetal; from the eight week to labor."
These phases refer to the different developmental stages of a baby. In brief, the main characteristics of these developmental stages are as follows:
- Pre-embryonic stage
In this first phase, the zygote grows by division, and when it becomes a cell cluster, it buries itself in the wall of the uterus. While they continue growing, the cells organise themselves in three layers.
- Embryonic Stage
The second phase lasts for five and a half weeks, during which the baby is called an "embryo". In this stage, the basic organs and systems of the body start to appear from the cell layers.
- Fetal stage
From this stage on, the embryo is called a "foetus". This phase begins at the eighth week of gestation and lasts until the moment of birth. The distinctive characteristic of this stage is that the foetus looks just like a human being, with its face, hands and feet. Although it is only 3 cm. long initially, all of its organs have become apparent. This phase lasts for about 30 weeks, and development continues until the week of delivery.
Information on the development in the mother's womb became available only after observations with modern devices. Yet, just like many other scientific facts, these pieces of information are imparted in the verses of the Qur'an in a miraculous way. The fact that such detailed and accurate information was given in the Qur'an at a time when people had scarce information on medical matters is clear evidence that the Qur'an is not the word of man, but the word of Allah.
The Identity in the Fingerprint
While it is stated in the Qur'an that it is easy for Allah to bring man back to life after death, peoples' fingerprints are particularly emphasized:
Yes, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers. (Surat al-Qiyama, 3-4)
The emphasis on fingerprints has a very special meaning. This is because everyone's fingerprint is unique to himself. Every person who is alive or who has ever lived in this world has a set of unique fingerprints.
That is why fingerprints are accepted as a very important proof of identity, exclusive to their owner, and are used for this purpose around the world.
But what is important is that this feature of fingerprints was only discovered in the late nineteenth century. Before then, people regarded fingerprints as ordinary curves without any specific importance or meaning. However in the Qur'an, Allah points to the fingertips, which did not attract anyone's attention at that time, and calls our attention to their importance-an importance that was only finally understood in our day.
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not able to post comments on Learners Blog
updated:
Reg. you query about the backbone and the ribs:
First Surah Ad-Dahr (Time or Man) chapter 76 verse 2
" Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm in order to try him: So we gave him (the gifts) of hearing and sight"
Note: Mingled - the female ovum has to be fertilised with the male sperm before a new being/animal/creature can be born. Man as an animal has this humble origin.
Coming to the verse you quoted:
Surah at-Tariq (The night visitant) Chapter 86 verses 6 - 7
6. He is created from a drop emitted
7. Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs
Note: A man's seed is the quintessence of his body.It proceeds from his loins i.e. from his back between the hip bones and his ribs. His back-bone is the source and symbol of his strength and personality. In the spinal cord and in the brain is the directive energy of the central nervous system and this directs all actions - organic and psychic. The spinal cord is continuous with the Medulla Oblongata in the brain.
and one more thing infi,
Faith is very important.
For example you have 2 glasses of water, one from the tap and another from mineral water bottle...how will you judge which is good? Nowadays even mineral water are contaminated...So every thing you cannot judge with your eyes like only if I see I'll believe..One has to go with faith...The creation of the universe, human body, its functions, other lives etc are all proof of A CREATOR being there and we have to have faith in that ONE creator...The life of Prophet has been an open book..I am sure no personality in human history has been documented more..even his private, sexual life everything has been documented...That shows the truthfulness of the messenger...An illiterate person suddenly inspired with these verses at the age of 40 and reveals verses that are beyond human comprehension and continue to baffle sceptics and critics with its meanings and scientific and living facts... This is where faith plays a part..people have seen with their eyes the changes and brought faith...
Similarly the heavens..seven layers of heaven...outer life like the Surah Ash-Shuara verse where "We have created the heavens and the earth and have put creatures in between"...it is clear there is life...But science has not gone so far and we are not able to know..Surely a day will come when man will go to the far of galaxies and find the truth..hope we are alive till then to see those miracles....When Prophet talked of the moon and ascension to heavens 1400 years ago, the unbelievers laughed..but now its so easy for people to go to outer space, land on moon and other planets etc...When man can do such things THEN IMAGINE THE MIGHT OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD WHO CREATED EVERYTHING...This is faith.
Below is the transcript of our discussions...
With best regards,
Human a.k.a. Citizen Kane
human Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:08:45 PM
It is correct..Surah 70 Al-Maarij (The ways of Ascent) verse 4...corresponding to Surah Sajdah chapter 32 verses 4-5..BTW, Infidel, I have gained tremendous knowldege of Islam and have moved even closer to it than before after the points you raised over the last 2 months..by finding answers to your queries I am getting more enlightened...Before I used to think you are a mischief monger but every action has a reaction and the more queries you raised my knowledge has increased trying to find answers to refute you.. Similar is today's case...I didn't know honestly that Quran mentions the duration of the Day of Resurrection...corresponding hadith is found in the hadith about the Meraaj (ascension to heavens) by the Prophet.
Learner Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:24:23 PM
Infidel and Human, i was skeptical whether this 50,000 years are mentioned in Quran or not. I wasn't sure that is why i did not write anything i this regard.And thanks to Infidel for giving the verse No.and as far as the hadith is concerned, honestly i don't know exactly verse in which it is mentioned 50,000 years. But it is surely mentioned in Mustanad hadith.But i will try to find out in which hadith it is mentioned.So infidel i think by now you may have started searching that hadith in which it is mentioned.Human you also look for that hadith.
Learner Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:50:07 PM
Infidel, i completely agree with Ahmad Almajed. He has given right answer.Quran is a very complex thing and one needs to be very careful to understand the true meaning otherwise one would be mislead by seemingly similar verses.
Infidel Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:58:05 PM
Human,Thanks for the compliment. It is very nice to hear that I was behind your strengthened faith. So there is a little chance that I will be saved from the hellfire as I helped a believer to be more enlightened. LOL.BTW, Human, I am still waiting for proof from Quran regarding LIFE IN OUTER SPACE. You might have read my refuttal of the verses you provided. There was no UNIVERSE mentioned in those verses.
human Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:05:43 PM
infi,The verse is The Heavens and the Earth and we put creatures between them..it is sufficient proof that God mentions heavens and earth and creatures in between them...between the heavens and the earth there are billions of galaxies just like our own solar system...Every possibility of life outside planet earth..Its a different issue reg. your belief in heavens...I cant make you believe in that..Those who believe in the heavens and hell and hereafter and messengers, angels, divine revelations might understand that verse...so no hardfeelings!
human Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:10:06 PM
it's just a matter of faith and what you believe in...A famous hadith of our beloved Prophet "Dont call any person unbeliever until he dies in his unbelief"...So infi, there is time for you too...I am keeping my fingers crossed! :-)
Infidel Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:18:20 PM
Also, all other verses you provided earlier were not telling anything about UNIVERSE, they were simply about earth only. So it is also very probable that heaven is similar to sky like sky is a dome on earth verse, 7 layers of sky/heaven etc
Infidel Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:21:07 PM
As I wrote earlier also that Heaven is a part of fairy tales like buraq, talking trees to j*ws, J*ws were turned to p*gs and ap*s etc.
Infidel Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:28:36 PM
Learner and Human,Do both of you agree that the duration of judgement day is exact 50000 earthly years (our 365 days = 1 year) as per sura 70.4 of quran. It is not approx. 50000 years but exact 50000 years, right.Please confirm.
Infidel Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:37:57 PM
I asked you to provide a scient - ific pro*f of the existance of Heaven, which you didn't.For belivers like you, each and every word of quran is true and you people are not allowed to question anything but for we infidels it is not like that. And that is why we see quran rationally and logically.
Infidel Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:44:27 PM
Faith and logic can not go together. If you believe in a faith, then you have already submitted your logic to the faith. You can not question anything as it goes against the faith.You have faith in allah, quran, muhammad and hadiths. So you everything perfect and divine in them. right.Your faith says Quran is word of allah, the creator, and hence is perfect.Now I have question for you. Since Quran is from god, there should not be a single error in it because god cannot err. If there is a single error in quran, then it cannot be from god. Do you agree?Whereas quran is full of errors and contradictions like all other religious scriptures. So how can it be from god.
human Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:07:25 PM
and infi, an honest answerWere u a muslim before and have become an unbeliever???
Infidel Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:49:14 PM
I mean, I am infidel by birth (Sorry for the typo above)
Infidel Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:51:28 PM
human, tell me one thing.Allah send me to this earth as non believer. I didn't choose that, it was all decided by allah, all knowing. He only knows that whether I will come to faith or not, right. But he gave me brain also, alongwith disbelief in him. Since I was born as infidel and by using my brain (given by allah) which does not accept islam without scrutiny, isn't it unfair on his part to punish me in hellfire for eternity. I can be enlightened only by his will and mercy, if he doesn't, it is not my fault, right.Being a believer, I think, it is your duty to show me the right path and light, even if I question a lot, you should answer them calmly. I cannot accept things like flying buraq, earth is flat, sperm comes from between backbone and ribs as it is. I need to know the truth about these things, right.As soon as all my doubts are gone about islam, quran, allah, muhammad as prophet, I will come to the faith automatically.
Infidel Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:54:17 PM
No, I am not an ex-muslim. I was born as infodel.
Infidel Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:55:19 PM
my comments are not going chronologically, some problem with NDTV blogs.
human Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:26:30 PM
The verses of the Quran are not contradicting but complimenting each other...As u already know it was revealed over a period of 23 years and majority of its verses are situational i.e. they were revealed as and when required..If the whole Quran had been revealed at one go, no one would have read or understood any of its meanings...This topic is vast and cannot be discussed ina medium like this where comments dont get posted..Its a face to face dialogues with proofs... Anyway i'll quote a few examples...The verses about intoxicants were revealed in 4 stages in 4 diff. surahs...The total abolition of intoxicant was quoted in Surah Maidah (chapter 4) and not in the later verses...Why? Becoz Surah Maidah was the last revealed Surah and contains many do's and dont's of life...Many scholars take decisons or fatwas based on this last revealed surah but which appears chronologically as No.4,,, The verses dont contradict but compliment..The previous revealed verses too should be taken into account while giving the decison about intoxicants being haram and the final verse should be the deciding factor.. Its a simple logic..no need to make an issue... There are many more such instances..regarding Salath, zakath, hajj, zina or adultery (contains 13 verses in the whole Quran)...In zina or adultery The arabic word is"Fahshayee"..it appears in 12 verses about adultery, homosexuality, nudity etc...BUT in one verse the arabic word is 'fahshayee mubbaiyana' meaning talking loudly or disobeying verbally (arabic is a rich language with multiple meanings).It was revealed when Prophet's wives disobeyed him and longed for the wealth.. Ill informed people or critics mix all these verses and say blasphemous things about the Prophet's wives (Nauzubillah)...This is what people like you call contradiction whereas there is no contradiction..ONLY MISINTERPRETATION or MISUNDERSTANDING or MISANALYSING...Each and every verse of the Quran compliments and does not contradict...
Infidel Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:49:39 PM
Human,I agree that this topic is too vast to be discussed in 1 go. But I cannot and will not come for one to one meeting, you know why. So if possible for you, we can discuss these points over net only. I don't know much about islam as you & Learner know and therefore it is up to you guys to answer calmly. Don't get upset.So far, our discussion, including Learner, is decent and we can continue like this ahead, if both of you want to.
human Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:51:44 PM
right infi...ur spot on.. Allah sends everyone as the same only man chooses what he thinks is right...Inshallah I'm sure you will attain true guidance one day BUT ISLAM believes in INTENTION...the first hadith of Sahih Bukhari is " All actions are dependent on the true intentions"...leave the islam topic...anything you do in day to day life depends on the intention..whether u do good or bad..It is the intention that makes everything count..God judges everything with one's intentions...Any person saying the Shahadah will not get a one way ticket to heaven..his deeds, his intentions everything counts...A muslim prays just to show off to others his piety but his intention in not true WHAT kind of guidance will he get? God tests him with materialistic things of this life and like his intention that person goes astray..
Infidel Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:52:23 PM
Did I really said half shahada, where? I wasn't knowing that.LOLSo human did you agree that judgement day will be exact 50000 earth years (our 365 days=1year)and not approx 50000 years. Please confirm.
human Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:57:12 PM
You have said half the Shahadah "There is no God" God willing you will soon say "But Allah".
human Friday, January 19, 2007 12:02:58 AM
Similarly infi have a good intention to gain TRUE guidance...clarify your points but not in an abusive way..
human Friday, January 19, 2007 12:08:25 AM
Ok infi...it was a different kind of blogging experience today with you..hope it goes on like this..Its night time in my part of the world..Got to sleep..important work 2morrow...Write your points i'll react later on...take care
human Friday, January 19, 2007 12:17:18 AM
Only God knows when the judgement day comes, how long it will be there, what will be the conditions of the universe etc etc...The Chapter 70 v 4 is a description of the judgement day to us human beings that it will be like 50000 years...You cant say whether 1 year = 365 days or how many days or how long? Only God knows best...It is a statement just to show how terrible the judgemnet day would...like beyond anything imaginable by us humans..
Infidel Friday, January 19, 2007 1:35:00 AM
Human, surely we can proceed like this, thanks.Your answer is slightly wage one. It is very clear from verse 70.4 that judgement day will be 50000 earth year (as you agreed above). 1 Earth year is 365 days, 1 day is 24 hours and so on. This we all know and why can't we say this, why allah knows the best. Isn't quran allah's word, can it be wrong? I have not gone to how terrible it will be yet. Is quran / hadith clear about duration of judgement day? if yes, is it exact 50000 earth(our) years (Verse 70.4) or approx 50000 earth years (Hadith, we don't know which verse yet). Please clarify the contradiction, if any.To my understanding, quran is word of allah and hadith is word of muhammad as per islam, right. Whatever is in quran, was revealed to muhammad through gabriel from allah, so that muhammad was not in a position to change anything in quran as per islam. So I would prefer quran over hadith, if there is any contradiction.
Infidel Friday, January 19, 2007 1:53:16 AM
If allah was not sure about the duration of the judgement day, he could have told "Time indefinate" but he said 50000 earth years. Allah can not be confused and I am sure he wasn't this time also. So what is there which we can not understand? isn't it simple?
Learner Friday, January 19, 2007 2:47:51 PM
I have seen some of your comments and that of human.One thing i would like to tell you infidel that there is no point in discussing the duration of the day of judgement.Allah mentioned duration of that day to just inform the people that it is gonna a long day.whether it exactly 50,000 years or approximately 50,000 years kya faraq padta yaar.The thing which makes the difference is the deeds which you have done here in this world.Good or bad, will fetch you rewards or punishment.But one thing i would like to tell is that THE BIGGEST SIN IN ALLAH'S SIGHT IS CREATING PARTNERS WITH HIM. that is worshipping other Gods or Goddesses besides him.ALLAH said I WILL FORGIVE EVERY SIN BUT NOT SHIRK,(CREATING PARTNERS TO HIM)That means hell fire is ordained to the ones who worshipp any body except Allah.And if you are worshipping Allah and also other Gods then also you will be made fuel of hell.So there is no point in searching contradictions in hadith and Quran. Instead follow the right path.
human Friday, January 19, 2007 5:58:39 PM
infi,coming to your query:Chapter 70 v 4,(Imam Yusuf Ali translation)"The angels and The Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day The measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years."It is clear that it will be like 50000 years and for us humans to understand it is like our own 365 days = 1 year BUT only Allah knows best what kind of each year it will be.. (The corresponding hadith quotes I'll give to you in a few days as all my hadith books have been borrowed by my friends)Actually no hadith contradicts the Quran but supplements it...The final authority is the Holy Quran followed by the hadiths..Quran is like a theory and hadiths are like practicals BOTH are equally important and they have never contradicted each other...maybe differences in interpretation and Holy QUran is the final word for the muslims..
Infidel Friday, January 19, 2007 7:38:02 PM
Ok dear friends, I rest this point here till we get the hadith.Learner, you told me to follow the right path, but I cannot untill all my queries are gone. I think you will agree with me. I cannot accept quran as word of allah (God)untill I see it is divine. I see many errors in quran and want to know from you guys about them.Just to start, Quran says 86:6-7:"He is created from a drop emitted proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs" (Yusuf Ali)Can you explain this to me?
7:43:35 PM
Posted By Citizen Kane Comments (26) Personals
Comments
Infidel Friday, January 19, 2007 8:34:16 PM
Human, thanks for the reply.In my understanding, your explanation is not true.Sperms are formed in testicles, semen in Seminal Vesicles and both of them are below the lowest tip of backbone and way below the rib cage. Also, testes have no fluid connection with spine.So it is wrong to say that sperm emitted from between backbone and ribs.
MUNEERUDEEN Friday, January 19, 2007 8:36:23 PM
Citizen Kane & Infidel !CONGRATULATIONS TO BOTH OF YOU ON A FANTASTIC DEBATE ! NO SLANG-OR SLUR -I DONT WANT TO BUTT IN COS VENU WILL FOLLW ME ! SO KEEP IT UP BOTH OF YOU ! !
MUNEERUDEEN Friday, January 19, 2007 8:37:42 PM
INFI-WAIT FOR THE SPACE STATION TO BE SET UP AND MAYBE THEY CAN SEE HEAVEN FROM THERE ! YOU HAVE 50000 YEARS ? RIGHT ??SO BE PATIENT MAN ! THEY WILL FIND IT PLUS THE TWO EASTS AND THE TWO WESTS TOO !WE ARE ONLY EARTHLINGS NOW -WAIT TILL WE COLONISE MOON AND MARS !
Learner Friday, January 19, 2007 8:40:15 PM
Citizen kane, It is our duty to call unbelievers to the right path. But i feel there should a limit to this and our self respect should also be taken care of.and I would like to give some verses from Quran,surah Baqara verse no 6 states: As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.And Verse no 7 states: Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur). and also as rasulullah sallalalahu alai hi wasallam said whom Allah lead astray nobody can guide them and whom Allah guideth nobody can leadastray.Hope you wouldn't mind my advise and take it in right spirit.This advice is to all the Muslim brothers like Muneeruddin, Ruzan shah,Irshad4u Etc.
Infidel Friday, January 19, 2007 8:54:02 PM
Learner, I repeat myself.I was send by allah on this earth as infidel and my fat was already decided by allah himself before my birth whether I will be a believer or not in this life given by allah, right. Now he has also decided already that I will return to islam or not. My intention to learn truth will only come by his will and mercy. If he has decided for me to be a believer, I will be one. But if he has decided for me to be infidel whole my life, I will remain as infidel forever and will burn in hellfire for eternity for being an infidel, right. It doesn't matter how hard I try to see the truth or how pure my intentions are towards the truth, it is allah who made the decision to show me the light or not.See, everything about me is already decided by allah before my birth and I was not involved in that decision at all, why should I be punished for being infidel.
Infidel Friday, January 19, 2007 8:57:16 PM
Muneer, thanks for your post.I will be waiting to see them find heavens. LOL
AJMAL Friday, January 19, 2007 9:18:54 PM
ALLAH WROTE THE FATE NOT BECAUSE THE MAN HAD TO DO WHAT IS WRITTEN THERE.OTHERWISE WHEN SOMEDAY U WOULD HAVE TRIED TO RAISE UR RIGHT HAND THEN IT WOULD HAVE REVOLTED TO RAISE ITSELF UP.ALLAH WROTE THAT BECAUSE HE KNEW WHAT U WILL DO ON THE EARTH.
AJMAL Friday, January 19, 2007 9:28:55 PM
In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of themale and female, i.e. the testicles and the ovaries,begin their development near the kidney betweenthe spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs.Later they descend; the female gonads (ovaries) stopin the pelvis while the male gonads (testicles)continue their descent before birth to reach thescrotum through the inguinal canal. Even inadulthood after the descent of the reproductiveorgans, these organs receive their nerve supply andblood supply from the Abdominal Aorta, which is inthe area between the backbone (spinal column) andthe ribs. The lymphatic drainage and the venousreturn also go to the same area.
AJMAL Friday, January 19, 2007 9:31:02 PM
NUTFAH ? MINUTE QUANTITY OFLIQUIDThe Glorious Qur?an mentions no less than eleventimes that the human being is created from nutfah,which means a minute quantity of liquid or a trickleof liquid that remains after emptying a cup. This ismentioned in several verses of the Qur?an including22:5 and 23:13.1Science has confirmed in recent times that only oneout of an average of three million sperms is requiredfor fertilising the ovum. This means that only 1/3millionth part or 0.00003% of the quantity of spermsthat are emitted is required for fertilisation.
human Friday, January 19, 2007 9:56:14 PM
Learner,I dont agree with you...Infidel has doubts and wants it to be clarified..It becomes our duty to clarify it..If he doesn't accept its his will but we have to give it a try..Who knows maybe one day he'll understand and get true guidance? There are umpteen number of such examples in Islam right from the days of the Prophet...We have not even faced 0.00001% of the kind of humiliation faced by the Prophet and his companions...So dont worry and give hope every chance..
Learner Friday, January 19, 2007 10:51:05 PM
I agree with you human,that we should always be hopeful that one day the light of truth will enter the hearts of infidels.As far as this infidel is concerned, i hope he is seriously taking interest in knowing Islam.i hope one day he bring faith on Allah and his messenger.And I am sure if his intention (neeyat) is pure then Allah will guide him to SIRATAL MUSTAQEEM.
Learner Friday, January 19, 2007 10:56:00 PM
One more thing, i want to know whether this infidel is the same person who write anti islam blogs with the name Infidel MInfidel please clarify this thing.
human Friday, January 19, 2007 11:16:03 PM
yes learner he is the same Infidel who used bad language...Anyway past is past since he himself has maintained a decent forum we too should give it a try...Rest Allah Knows Best.
Infidel Friday, January 19, 2007 11:34:56 PM
Learner and Ajmal,Let us read the verse 86:6-7 one more time. It says: “He is created from a drop emitted, proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs”.I don’t think these verses talking about a stage of embryology. They are talking about creation of a man from a drop which is emitted from between backbone and ribs. The ‘drop emitted’ suggests a fully developed and functional testes, rather than an embryonic structure. Embryonic testes do not emit, ejaculate, gush forth, pour forth, or spurt any substance; only the peri- and post-pubertal testes do. Even if we were to accept your implied claim that these verses refer to embryological stage, it is also wrong because the highest position of the undescended testes is BELOW the kidney, which is clearly not between backbone and ribs. It is rather below the backbone and way below to ribs. Ajmal, your explanation of the nerve, blood and lymphatic circular from the abdominal aorta is irrelevant and generates the logical fallacy of the red herring. This is because verses 85:6-7 speak about ‘a drop emitted’, commonly taken to mean semen and sperm only as this drop is directly responsible for human reproduction, something which cannot be claimed for nerve signals, blood or lymph.
Infidel Friday, January 19, 2007 11:46:05 PM
Learner and Human,Diologue is a two process. If one start abusing, sweraing and cursing, then other has no choice but to respond in an appropriate manner to shut them up.I agree that let past be past. So far we have maintained decency, No name calling, personal attack etc and hope for the best in future as well.
Infidel Friday, January 19, 2007 11:52:42 PM
Please read as "Dialogue is a two way process"
K.Venugopal Saturday, January 20, 2007 12:32:17 AM
Muneerka, As you anticipated, I've followed you. Your are right, this is a fantastic debate going on. Infidel seems to be a genius. Fancy knowing the intricacies of the Quran without going to a Madrasa. I've a good mind to make him my Guru! I also appreciate Citizen Kane's and Learner's perseverance. Quite a quality.
Infidel Saturday, January 20, 2007 6:11:29 AM
Dear Venu,Thanks for the compliment.The credit goes to both learner and human. Also to all other bloggers who used to run after my mother, father, sister, daughter and me as soon as they see a blog or comment by me. Thank god, till now they are silence, otherwise this blog also would have been a mess. This blog is a perfect example of a decent discussion between muslims and nonmuslims so far. Kisi ki nazar na lage.LOLBTW, where is shahul nowadays, I didn't see his post for a long time.
Infidel Saturday, January 20, 2007 6:33:32 AM
Please read "silent" in place of silence otherwise amardeep will try to humiliate me for my weak english.
Learner Saturday, January 20, 2007 3:09:01 PM
Infidel, i am not in a position to answer this medical question raised by you properly as I am not a MBBS doctor or a gynecologist.But one incident i would to tell you.Initially when revelation started the prophet used to offer prayer (Namaaz) in the Kaaba mosque in mecca, along with his wife and Hazrat Ali. People used to see it and think what this weird thing they are doing. But they never bothered about it. This was the period where Prophet wasn't asked by Allah to call people towards Islam.
Learner Saturday, January 20, 2007 3:31:14 PM
The period mentioned above is lasted for about 2 years. Then Allah asked the Prophet to call all the people towards Islam and warn them not to worship idols.So one day Prophet went on the hill top and with big voice gathered people of Mecca and said "if i tell you that there is a large army standing behind this moutain and is ready to attack you, would you believe me". so everybody noded their heads and said yes we believe you as you have never lied before.Prophet was famous for always speaking truth and was considered best trustee of People's treasure and goods.In Arabic he was titled "SADIQ and AMEEN" by the people of Mecca.Hope you would understand the meaning of the above words as i have already mentioned the meaning.
Learner Saturday, January 20, 2007 3:41:01 PM
So when people said we believe you Then Prophet said I warn you of a fire which is about to engulf you. Save yourself from that fire. I am Allah's messenger and Allah has ordered me to call all of you towards him and leave idol worship and worship Allah only. Then only you would be saved from the fire.So some mischievous persons said Oh people don't believe in him he is just lying and do your own business.so people dipersed after that but some people was moved by that sermon and embraced faith as they know Prophet never used to lie.This is what i am trying to tell you that people brought faith on Prophet by just seeing his face and listening to his words and nothing else.
Learner Saturday, January 20, 2007 3:56:33 PM
One more thing infidel,you must be aware of it.Most of the Meccans rejected faith. And in the 11th years of Prophethood Prophet gave the invitation of Islam to the people of Medina who were in mecca for the pilgrimage of Haj. I exactly don't know how many people were there. But to my knowledge they were about 7 or 11 people. So they immediately embrace Islam, why because the Jews of Medina used to tell the other people of Medina that we are awaiting a Prophet and when he comes we will defeat you and show you the place you deserve.Wait for that day to come.So they immediately grabbed the opportunity of becoming his companion, prior to the Jews and went back and again came on pilgrimage the next years and this time 72 people came from Medina and embraced Islam and went back to Medina and preached Islam. Have you interpreted something with this?
Citizen Kane Saturday, January 20, 2007 4:20:22 PM
Reg. the backbone and ribs I have sent a detail note to a friend of mine (Non Muslim) a practicing Gynaecologist in USA for our doubts to be clarified...The answers by Ajmal and Others and Your reply to them everything I have sent regarding the v86:6-7. I'll keep you informed of the new facts from the expert's views
human Saturday, January 20, 2007 7:30:32 PM
The progress of science makes it clear that living beings have an extremely complex structure and an order too perfect to have come into being by coincidence. This is evidence to the fact that living beings are created by an All-Powerful Creator with superior knowledge. Recently, for instance, with the unravelling of the perfect structure in the human gene-which became a prominent issue due to the Genome Project-the unique creation of God has once more been revealed for all to see. When the father's sperm cell fertilizes the mother's egg cell, the parents' genes come together to determine all the physical characteristics of the baby that will eventually be born. Each of the thousands of different genes has a particular function. It is the genes that determine hair and eye colour, facial shape, and countless details in the skeleton, internal organs, brain, nerves and muscles. When the sperm unites with the egg, a cell forms-the basis of a new human being-and along with that cell, the first copy of the DNA molecule also forms, which will carry that person's genetic code inside each cell all through his life.

K.Venugopal Saturday, January 20, 2007 10:29:26 PM

Dear Learner, You have rightly said the following, "When the father's sperm cell fertilizes the mother's egg cell, the parents' genes come together to determine all the physical characteristics of the baby that will eventually be born." It is only the physical traits that are determined by the parents. The mental traits are determined by the child's surroundings. But the spiritual traits are determined by the child's previous lives.

Since Islam has not touched on the subject of previous lives, Muslims are ignorant of the self-driven spiritual unfolding of an individual and hence take it for granted that everyone can be made to toe the Quran line in their one and only lifetime, without realising that one lifetime is too short for any spiritual unfoldment. Hence, Quran is not a book suitable for spiritual unfoldment but is only an instruction manual to belong to an identity group.

Infidel Sunday, January 21, 2007 12:02:53 AM
Dear Human & Learner,Thanks for the replies.Let me make one thing clear that I am also neither an MBBS nor a Gynocologist. And I don't know about Islam much as well.It is the internet from which I get some knowledge.I have my copy of quran (English translation by Yusuf Ali, Pickthal and Shakir). So please exceuse me for my little knowledge of islam. That is why I am having this discussion with you guys. You people learnt and practised islam throughout your lives and for me both of you are experts in your religion. I can put Muneer also in this category.But before believing something, I want clrify and confirm about that, once it is clear to me, the faith will come automatically.Learner, people believed muhammad because they knew him, but I know you people through this blog only. I cannot meet you now atleast. So please be patient.
Infidel Sunday, January 21, 2007 12:07:17 AM
Hunman,You put a load of points in your reply. Some of the points mentioned by you are also in my query lists. So we will go one by one.Regarding verse 86:6-7, I think we should rest the case till you get answer from your friend in USA. I hope you will agree. BTW, the vrse is not talking about harmons etc, as you explained, so please wait for the reply.
Infidel Sunday, January 21, 2007 1:41:29 AM
And one more thing. This discussion/debate is not for winning or losing, this is to learn the truth. In the process of learning the truth we all are imcreasing our knowledge and learning new things.Since we are not expert in everything, this discussion may or maynot end up with the truth. If it does not, then nobody wins, but atleast we learnt part of the truth, but if we end up with truth, then everybody wins, right. Not only three of us but our readers as well. So all of us should be focused and determined to seek the truth.
Infidel Sunday, January 21, 2007 1:47:33 AM
Human,I have to differ to your explanation of sura 23:14: ”Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!”In your explanation, you are telling that first bones are made and then the muscles. But actually, It is reverse in order. Muscles begin developing in week 4. There are 40 pairs of developing muscles in the 5-week embryo, and they begin to move by week 6. By week 7, the muscles and nerves begin work together, when ossification (i.e. bone formation) begins. Please clarify.
Learner Sunday, January 21, 2007 11:30:32 AM
Infidel you discuss the medical point with human. but the time being go through this verse of the Quran and ponder over it.Chapter 21 Surab Anbiya verse 33 "And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit."You must be knowing that sun is also revolving in an orbit. This thing was discovered recently. This wasn't known 1400 years ago.
Infidel Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:41:32 PM
Learner, our discussion is for seeking the truth. Be it medical science, be it astronomy, be it judgement day, be it any other thing. Our purpose is to get the truth. In that process, we are coming through many points. We started with judgement day, then we discussed sura 86:6-7 regarding sperms emitted from between backbone and ribs. The next point came regarding formation of bones and muscles (sura 23:14). We are not finished with any of them yet.Anyway, you started another topic regarding cosmology in quran. What I read and understood from quran is that it describes universe in a very geocentric way. But we will discuss that afterwards. Sura 21:33 states that "And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit." By analysing this verse it appears that sun and moon are in pair and are following different orbits. Is that true? Please clarify.
Citizen Kane Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:22:16 PM
It is He Who created night and day and the sun and moon, each one swimming in a sphere. (Qur'an, 21:33) The word "swim" in the above verse is expressed in Arabic by the word "sabaha" and is used to describe the movement of the Sun in space. The word means that the Sun does not move randomly through space but that it rotates around its axis and follows a course as it does so. The fact that the Sun is not fixed in position but rather follows a specific trajectory is also stated in another verse: And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. (Qur'an, 36:38These facts set out in the Qur'an were only discovered by means of astronomical advances in our own time. According to astronomers' calculations, the Sun moves along a path known as the Solar Apex in the path of the star Vega at an incredible speed of 720,000 kmph. In rough terms, this shows that the Sun traverses some 17.28 million km a day. As well as the Sun itself, all the planets and satellites within its gravitational field also travel the same distance.
Infidel Sunday, January 21, 2007 10:51:21 PM
Human, thanks for the reply. I was expecting on "formation of bones and muscles" though.Anyway, If we read verse 36:38; "And the sun runs to its RESTING PLACE". What does it mean by "resting place". Sun never rests so no question of resting place, right. It is only possible if we are talking about sunset, which we can see everyday and was being seen time indefinite. If these verses are talking about course of the sun in the sky from sunrise to sunset in which it surely follows a definite path (the path changes in winter and summer though, but is definite)then what you have explained is not true. Please clarify.
Citizen Kane Sunday, January 21, 2007 11:05:48 PM
Infi, Kindly check and read my new update on your queries.
human Sunday, January 21, 2007 11:20:20 PM
In the verse 'Mustaqarr' amy mean 1. A limit of time, a period determined2. A place of rest or quiescenceBoth the meanings are applicable. The second the simile would be that of the sun running a race while visible to us and taking a rest during the night to prepare to renew its race the following day. The stay of the sun with the antipodes appears to us as its period of rest when in fact it is moving along with others.
amardeep Sunday, January 21, 2007 11:34:50 PM
Citizen Kane is a True genius!!Good work, keep it up.Any way do you think is there any use to debate a fake person like Infidel!!
Citizen Kane Sunday, January 21, 2007 11:43:22 PM
No Mr. Amardeep I dont agree with you...I am not a genius and I have nowhere convinced Mr.Infidel..Whatever knowledge I have its the mercy of God and I'm thankful to him for that.. and also its not a question of FAKE or NOT but FAITH...I have faith in God that one day Infidel will see light, Inshallah and I will try for that and keep my fingers crossed..Accepting or not is upto the person..If Infidel doesn't accept the facts then we can also say that I have not conveyed to him properly instead of using words like fake..We have give hope a chance...Hope you dont mind my answer.
Infidel Sunday, January 21, 2007 11:56:10 PM
Thanks Human. There will be many persons like amardeep, who will try to distract us from seeking the truth. Even if a person sincerely looking for truth, they will always doubt him and try to make fun of him.I dont mind such person's comment and you ahve just shown that you laso don't. thanks once more.As I said earlier, the path of truth is not easy and we have to be focused and determined in search of the truth, and be patient and clam as well.
Infidel Sunday, January 21, 2007 11:57:22 PM
So at last amardeep commented.LOL
Infidel Monday, January 22, 2007 12:17:42 AM
Human & Learner,I was not able to post my comment here so please visit my blog titled "Debate: Infidel vs Human & Learner".
KMuneerudeen Monday, January 22, 2007 1:34:44 AM
You guys are damn good at this ! Venu and I give up-BUT will watch your debate from the sidelines ! You are going moreinto physiology.Anyway that is part of creation.Did you read about the Biblical Museum in USA tracing human development to just 6000 years back and refuting Darwin's theory ??