Debate: Infidel vs. Human & Learner - Part 3

Wednesday, January 24, 2007
Debate: Infidel vs Human & Learner - Part 3
Dear human, you wrote in your last blog: “I rest my case regarding this verse of bone and muscle until definitive proof and give our good old scientists more time to play around with inventions...maybe they will come out with more mindboggling ideas like sperm has no connection with human birth etc etc :-)”
Though it is a wishful thought because it is well established through decades of research that muscle form prior to bones in an embryo. Sperms are actually responsible for human birth (Since ancient time, people knew that it is semen which is responsible for human birth, modern science only proved that with more details that sperms present in semen are actually responsible).
I respect your decision and rest the case regarding muscle and bone issue till your wish.
To summarize our discussion so far :
1) Judgement day -we are waiting for the hadith which you are searching2) Sperm from between backbone and ribs - we are waiting for your friend's reply3) bone & muscle - you rest the case till new scientific discoveries (practically no chance) 4) embryology in quran - on going5) sun & moon - on goingand many more points which we raised during the discussion. Actually we are starting many new topics every time we write. Not a problem. We will do it sooner than later.
Continuing the discussion, I would like to look for the precise meaning of the Arabic words nutfah, alaqa and mudghah in order to know whether the verses contain important scientific statements that have only recently been discovered, as Dr Moore and others claim.
Quran: Sura 23:13-14:
Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman). Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (Alaqa, a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh (Mudghah), then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators!
Compared to nutfah,(which I will discuss some other time), it is rather more difficult to understand what alaqa means. Many different suggestions have been made: clot (Pickthall, Maulana Muhammed Ali, Muhammed Zafrulla Khan, Hamidullah), leech-like clot (Yusuf Ali), and "leech, suspended thing or blood clot" (Moore, op. cit.).
So what I understand from above is that alaqa means 1) Clot or Blood clot, 2) Leech and 3) Cling or clinging thing.
Let us discuss all three meaning one by one.
1) Alaqa means Clot or Blood clot:
Many translators but not Dr Moore suggest that alaqa means Clot.
If we take translation of alaqa as "clot" in this verse, it means that the Quran is completely wrong about human development, since there is absolutely no stage during which the embryo consists of a clot.
The only situation in which an embryo might appear like a clot is during a miscarriage, in which case the clotted blood that is seen to emerge (much of which comes from the mother incidentally) is solidified and by definition no longer alive. So if ever an embryo appeared to look like a clot it would never develop any further into a human; it would be a dead mass of bloody miscarrying flesh. Since Muhammed had several wives it is entirely likely that he would be very familiar with miscarriages. Alternatively it could be hinting at Aristotle's incorrect belief that the embryo originated from the combination of male sperm and female menstrual blood.
Dr Moore avoids this problem by translating alaqa as a leech, since he is well aware that there is no stage in development when the embryo is a clot. (Refer your last post).
So beyond doubt, alaqa does not mean Clot in this verse. If it does, quran is wrong.
2) Alaqa means Leech:
In figure 2 of your last post, it is written as “Note the leech-like appearance of the human embryo at this stage.”
There is ambiguity in this statement. It says, Leech like appearance of embryo but quran says it is leech (alaqa means leech). God knows what is Leech and what is Leech like appearance.
As per Dr Moore’s suggestion, the appearance of an embryo of 24 days' gestation resembles a leech, though this is rather debatable. In side view the developing umbilicus (genetically part of the embryo) is almost as big as the "leech-shaped" part into which a human is formed and the developing placenta (which also consists of tissue that is genetically from the embryo) is much larger than the embryo. It is claimed that the ancient sages would not have been able to see an embryo about 3mm long and describe it as leech-like, but Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, by which the embryo "clings" to the uterus wall in the 4th century B.C.
3) Alaqa means Cling or Clinging thing:
If we consider this meaning of alaqa, then also it is wrong. Does this mean that the foetus only clings to the uterus wall for a few days (when it is in alaqa stage only)? Obviously it remains attached for the entire nine months of gestation. So alaqa means Cling also does not fit here as well.

A 24/25 day embryo at the alaqa stage, approx. 2 mm long
Moving onto the next stage of development, Razi described the mudghah as being a little piece of meat the size of what a man can chew. The idea that mudghah means chewed flesh is a later, and less accurate translation of the word, but the idea has persisted because it is claimed that the somites from which the backbone and other trunk structures develop bear a passing resemblance to teeth marks implanted in plastercine (Figure 3 in your last post). It must be said that not only is this an imaginative interpretation however, but besides, Dr Moore cannot claim that the mudghah should occur at 26-27 days since at that point the embryo is a mere 4mm long. One would have to wait around 8 weeks before the embryo was the size of chewed flesh (if a mouthful is defined as being 20-30mm wide), which is what mudghah really means.
As we have seen, this is only to justify his interpretation that an embryo of 24-25 days is a clinging leech-like alaqa and one at 26-27 days is a mudghah with teeth-marks.
A 26/27 day embryo, said to resemble a mouthful of flesh, but only 3 mm long
Even if we have to assume that mudghah means chewed flesh, an embryo cannot be a chewed flash. If we consider that it appears like a chewed flesh then we are not in line with quran which says “then it is a chewed flesh (Mudghah)”
Let me quote following sahih Hadith, transmitted by Bukhari and Muslim,
`Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported that Allah's Messenger ... said: "Verily your creation is on this wise. The constituents of one of you are collected for forty days in his mother's womb in the form of blood [sperm?], after which it becomes a clot of blood in another period of forty days. Then it becomes a lump of flesh and forty days later Allah sends his angel to it ..."
Thus according to Muhammed, the drop of sperm remains in the womb for 40 days, then becomes a clot for a further 40 days, then a lump of flesh for 40 days.
It has been shown that human sperm can only survive inside a woman's reproductive tract for a maximum of 7 days; at 80 days the embryo has very definitely acquired the shape of a human being and looks nothing like either a clot or a mouthful of flesh.
An eleven week foetus, real size 7.5 cm, but according to Muhammed still at the alaqa stage, a clot of blood
There are other problems with Moore's interpretation too. Not least is the claim of Muhammed that the dates of the alaqa and mudghah were 40-80 days and 80-120 days of gestation respectively, rather than 24-25 days and 26-27 days.
Muhammed claims that the mudghah stage occurs between days 80 and 120. Yet by this time the foetus is considerably larger than a lump of flesh the size of which a man can chew, and looks very human-like and totally unlike meat.
It also begs the question as to why, if the Quran really is giving us a highly precise scientific account of human development, it only mentions four stages, nutfah, alaqa, mudghah, plus the clothing of bones with flesh. Between fertilization and day 28 for example Dr Moore lists no fewer than 13 stages in his textbook. Why does the Quran say nothing about any of these other stages? And why Dr Moore does not follow quranic stages in his own textbook after seeing remarkable agreement of quranic verses with modern science of human embryology?
The reality is that the more ambiguous the meaning of the Arabic terms, and the more meanings that can be attached to certain words, the less convincingly can they be said to be highly precise scientific terms. It is clear from above discussion that Quran is merely repeating the teaching of the enormously influential ancient physicians Galen and Aristotle. If this is the case, not only is the Quran wrong, but it also plagiarises ancient literature. This only leads once again to the human origin of quran rather than divine.
12:59:56 PM
Posted By Infidel M Comments (1) Musings
Comments
K.Venugopal Wednesday, January 24, 2007 1:31:41 PM
Respected Infidel, There might be a problem in debates with the faithful. Even if logical, reasonable and conclusive proof is given that a certain verse or understanding in a scripture is wrong, they will come up with the answer that since God cannot go wrong, we must have somehow got it wrong though they can't figure out how! But keep going, at least sanctimonious humbug can be exposed.

human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:00:56 PM
Dear Infi,Read your reply...Could it possible for you to give the source of your analysis regarding Nutfah, Alaq and mudgah... are you just saying what you think is right? I may be able to answer properly if I know the source of your judgement.Regards
Infidel Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:04:41 PM
Dear Venu, Thanks for the kind words. Please don't call me respected, I am not of that caliber. I merely get my knowledge from internet only, which anybody can do. You are absolutely right. Faith and logic can not go together. Specially when it comes to religion, be it any religion. Suppose, I have full/blind faith in you and whatever you do I beieve it without doubt or question. Even if sometimes you are wrong and I know that but I will ignore that because that goes against my faith in you. Actually, I have to submit/ surrender my logic to you first and then only I can be faithful to you. This was an example of one person's faith in another. Just think about the intensity and gravity of faith in religion. It is so deeply rooted that if we see a thing is WHITE but our faith/religion says it is BLACK, we will still belive that something is wrong with our own eye sight and actually that thing is BLACK as said in our religion. Or we may try to convince ourselves that definition of BLACK and WHITE are actually reverse. But once we start thinking logically, everything becomes crystal clear.
Infidel Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:16:10 PM
Dear Human,Basically, I used the translations from this site: www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/023.qmt.html for quran and hadith.To find the meaning of arabic words, the Qamus al-Muheet, one of the most important Arabic dictionaries ever compiled, by Muhammed Ibn-Yaqub al-Firuzabadi (AD 1329-1415) was used. Also, I googled for Aristotle and Galen. Besides this, I visited some other sites too. And finally, I analysed and compiled the information I gathered.Hope this will serve the purpose.
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:30:54 PM
also infi,Could you also clarify your exact doubt about Judgement Day..what you wish to know exactly?Like you said in our discussion we have opened a lot of points hence the confusion as I find it difficult to locate the exact query as the site is slow to open the blogs...Sorry to trouble you.In reply to my blog..I DID NOT bring up the topic of Mohammed (pbuh)...It was Quran...The Surah Lahab is good example to find out about the divinity of Quran, also the probability tests and the question of friendship with jews...all these verses are falsification tests to find out whether Quran is the word of God.
Infidel Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:44:35 PM
Dear human, regarding judgement day we stuck at the duration of that day. Whether it is exact 50000 earth years (quran) or approx. 50000 years (hadith).Give me some time to go throuth sura lahab one more time please.Do you really believe in fairy tales like "jews were turned to apes and pigs", "buraq and muhammad's night journey" and "sun sets in muddy water", "earth is flat" etc verses.
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:09:06 PM
infi,Kindly go through my previous 2 blogs...I have answered your query for sun and moon..What's your doubt on that now? Please clarify and regarding jews I did not mention apes or swines but the friendship of jews with muslims...Kindly read it again and let me know your points...I am loving this debate...I am getting to learn new things...Thanks for carrying on this debate and the best part is the language maintained by both of us inspite of instigations from other bloggers
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:10:17 PM
I am not able to locate the hadith for 50000 yrs...Judgement Day years is referred in the Quran at 2 places : Suran 70 v 4 which we discussed earlier and Surah 32 v 3 where it says a 1000 years of your reckoning...There is no contradiction here but God giving an idea to man about the length of the day like 1000 yrs or 50000 yrs..all His judgement, mercy, punishemnt restoration of all values etc will be as in a day or an hour or twinkling of an eye and yet to our ideas or mind it will be like 1000 or 50000 years...Actually it is like a simile...For God it will be easy like flash or blink or a second but for us humans it will be like an eternity...The duration mentioned is just like an example not the exact time..it is just to make humans understand the important of the Day...Hope you got the point regarding judgement day.
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:22:01 PM
Arabic language as I said is rich in meanings and has diverse meanings...The verses are simple and no need for illustrations...I just cannot comprehend your analysis...you are mixing all the different concepts...Clinging means not for just a few days it is till the childbirth...The small lump develops clingling all along to the *******Quran never says LEECH..it says LEECH LIKE SUBSTANCE surah 96 v 2
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:23:12 PM
all my replies are going haywire..kindly arrange it yourself and read :-)
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:25:28 PM
I am not able to post comments as it is not accepting..I will write a detailed blog..Embrology is huge field and an ocean of data..Since we are not experts it will take some time to get the details and ideas..we have to bear each other on this particular topic of hip and ribs and spearm, clot, leech etc
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:33:08 PM
I have recd the message from my friend and it is similar to what I had mentioned in the blogs but which you have refuted..hence I did not send your the reply...Regarding the embrology part of hip bone and ribs and clot or leech etc you have taken from few scientists versions and I have used mine..so how to arrive at the answer?...both of us must agree to a good genuine source to agree and then consider the points again...
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:38:09 PM
Dear Infi,I am replying during my work hence there may be a break..kindly bear with me on this...I have updated my last blog..kindly read it and give me your thoughts...
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:21:36 PM
infi,I have gone through some of your favourite sites like faithfreedom, answeringislam, freethoughts...Sorry to say most of your comments and refutations comes from these sites...These are nothing but jewish and christian hate sites and their analysis and data cannot be taken on face value or to be perfect...hence my earlier plea that a common genuine source between us to judge the right and wrong otherwise this debate will become meaningless..Hope you understand my point..want to know your opinion on this..regards
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:36:26 PM
human development The Carnegie Institutions' Department of Embryology , Johns Hopkins Medical Institute in Baltimore, Maryland1 monthFertilization! The sperm and egg join in your fallopian tube to form a unique human being -- that's 46 combined chromosomes which pre-determine all of a person's physical characteristics. Washed into your uterus, the developing embryo searches for a nice place to implant and is only one-sixth of an inch long, but growing quickly. The heart, no larger than a poppy seed, has been beating since day 18 when you're just four days late for your menstrual period, and by 21 days it is pumping, through its own closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from yours. Four weeks after fertilization the eye, ear and respiratory systems begin to form. Thumbsucking has been photographed within the first trimester, at 9 to 12 weeks, by scientists. contd..
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:40:52 PM
infi,The link of o**** with Keith Moore is not in good taste...The science details propagated by Keith Moore were more than quarter century back where as o**** is a new phenomenon...Also remember that before a*q**** O**** was a respected businessman in KSA and hence may have had business interests in the publication house...In what way does the claims of Dr.Keith Moore get diluted? eg. Azharuddin's ban cannot diminish his records as a player or Shane Warne's antics cannot in anyway diminish his genius...What o**** and moore had was many years back and not some new phenomena like a*q****...Moore is a respected doctor and scientist in his field...
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:42:03 PM
sorry I had to write in a censored form...my comments are not being accepted..around 5 comments have been rejected
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:47:22 PM
Here thumbsucking is mentioned and 8th month the muscles grow and the baby moves..So doesn't it mean bones had already been formed...without the bone structure how can the heart, eyes and ears hold together? Please clarify what you think? This is not a proof..just another source to our common goals and like you said to gain true knowledge...
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:57:20 PM
venu,Same question to you..Why cant you go by the validity of the Quran...there are 1000s instances of facts and data...whether they match with todays inventions is another issue to discuss..majority of the facts are analysed as correct by people of all walks of life.....So why dont you accept the validity of the quran? Why do you ask for the source? Why do you question the messenger's credentials?
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:58:14 PM
2 monthBy 8 weeks the embryo grows to 1/2 an inch, the major muscles system develops and she moves gracefully like a good swimmer although you can't feel it yet. This tiny human is perfectly developed with long, tapering fingers, feet and toes and whose skin is almost transparent with a highway of delicate arteries and veins visible to the ends of the fingers. By 10 weeks, 20 tiny baby teeth are forming in the gums, she squints, swallows, moves her tongue, and if you stroke her palm, will make a tight fist. The toes will develop in the next few days and brain waves can be measured and she will react to loud noises.
K.Venugopal Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:06:01 PM
Dear Human, I find your requesting the source of Infidel's analysis amazing. What if he got his data from Satan? Can't you go by the validity of what he says? Either he is right or wrong. This is typical, for the faithful does not go by what is said but by who said it. Pathetic.
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:18:00 PM
venu,Same question to you..Why cant you go by the validity of the Quran...there are 1000s instances of facts and data.....majority of the facts are analysed as correct by people of all walks of life.....So why dont you accept the validity of the quran? Why do you ask for the source? Why do you question the messenger's credentials?
human Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:22:16 PM
Infi,Its night time here...busy work tomorrow...Put in your analysis..I'll read and reply later...Regards
Infidel Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:50:58 AM
Please read the updated version above. Regards.
Infidel Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:58:20 AM
Human, Please give me the surah number of surah Lahab.
ganshyam bhonsdiwala Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:33:57 AM
GHANTA
human Thursday, January 25, 2007 5:28:55 PM
Surah Lahab is Chapter 111...it is about the prophet's uncle who died as an unbeliever...this surah is a very early meccan surah...Abu Lahab died many years after this surah was revealed in the battle and also his wife.. By becoming a muslim (only acting) he could have proved this verse and the Quran wrong but he died as an unbeliever.
human Thursday, January 25, 2007 5:31:12 PM
Dear infi,Read your blog updates in detail and liked it very much..was very interesting and informative...Right now I am very busy with the republic day function arrangements at my school hence the delay..Kindly bear with me...I will reply very soon.Take care,best regards
infidel Thursday, January 25, 2007 6:33:04 PM
No problem bro.I wish you, venu and all other bloggers a happy republic day.Regards,
muneerudeen Friday, January 26, 2007 10:52:51 PM
Infi !Hats off to you and human for the research and comments. You are questioning the Quran and Hadeeths even as you say-we muslims blindly put our faith in them ! Thats Eiman- which helps us fight injustice. As for your firing off quotes and texts-how sure are you that they are valid or correct ? Are you sure Charles Darwin is correct ? Did'nt astronomers revise their view that PLUTO was not a planet !
muneerudeen Friday, January 26, 2007 10:56:22 PM
SO how can we as Muslims try to correct your wrong views -when your scietists have changed their own views. Qur'an is beyond such time to time alterations BUT eventually you will come to accept wth proof !And maybe in future YOU can learn correct space science and read it off from the QURAN ! We need more than a lifetime to understand the basics of Quran ...BUT let the dialogue continue ....
Infidel Friday, January 26, 2007 11:35:38 PM
Muneer, thanks for the compliments. we are just trying our best to find the truth. I have some doubts and human is trying to clarify them.My question to you is that do you believe that each and every word written in quran is true as it is from god? (I think, your answer should be yes as practising muslim and having imaan). Also you told me in other blog that hadiths are equally authentic as quran, right. I ask you same question as I asked to human:"Muhammad said in hadith I quoted above that alaqa stage is 40-80 days and mudghah stage is 80-120 days, but Dr Moore says alaqa is 23-24 days and mudghah is 27-28 days. In your opinion who is right, muhammad or Dr Moore? Surely, it should be muhammad (being a prophet of allah) because Dr Moore is not even a believer. Most definitly Dr Moore's interpretation and translation must be wrong as muhammad and allah can not be wrong."
Infidel Saturday, January 27, 2007 12:03:21 AM
Scientists can be wrong and that is why they are researching everyday. Ancient doctors like Hippocrates, Aristotle and Galen believed that sperms are produced between backbone and ribs. Quran got it from them. Now it is proved beyond any doubt that sperms are formed in testes. Nobody can deny that. Are testes between backbone and ribs? NO WAYHence quran got this concept wrong but nobody can correct it because add/edit/ delete is not allowed in quran. If quran is god's word, how can he be so miserably wrong? So quran can not be from god.
infidel Saturday, January 27, 2007 11:18:56 AM
As this post became too lengthy, I have posted Debate:.. Part 4. Please read some astonishing information there.Regards